The last we heard from you was in 1995 with the Tom Waits tribute album "Step Right Up" on Manifesto Records. Your version of "Jersey Girl" was a highlight of the compilation. Was that the last session in the studio for the Pale Saints?
Yes.
Was there anything else from that session that made it to tape?
No, we specifically went in just to record that track. I haven't even got a copy of it to be honest.
It's definitely a great version of the song…
At the time, we didn't know that would be the last thing we ever did. We just went in and recorded that one track for that CD.
How did Pale Saints contributing to that compilation come about?
We were one of the bands the people putting the CD together had in mind about approaching. I think I had maybe one Tom Waits record. I'm not a massive fan. I do like him, I appreciate him. Colleen was a massive Tom Waits fan. It was just something different to try at the time.
Was there a specific song the compilation producers wanted you to cover or could the band choose one?
They pretty much let us pick the song and if none of the other bands had picked it first then we could go ahead with it.
This is where the timeline gets fuzzy. What happened afterwards, once the "Step Right Up" tribute album had come out and the years that followed?
I left the band in September of 1995 and the others decided to split up after that.
Do you stay in touch with the others in the band at all?
Not really. We all lead our separate lives. I sometimes see Chris and Graham in the street because they both live in Leeds as well.
Did you keep in regular contact with 4AD and Ivo Watts-Russell after the split?
Yes, several times over the one or two years that followed. But for me, when I left that was it, the end of a chapter.
Were there any plans to continue on at 4AD, perhaps not as Pale Saints but on a new project for the label?
I didn't want to, no. I wanted a break. I didn't really enjoy the last year of Pale Saints.
Why was that? That was during the "Slow Buildings" album period, 1994, 1995. What happened there?
I just didn't enjoy working with the others and it generally wasn't a very productive time.
Do you have any fond memories of the "Slow Buildings" album though?
Oh yes, I am glad it came out. But the music I'm doing now in Kuchen is what I'm most passionate about.
So what happened in the years following 1995 that led to the birth of Kuchen?
It was sort of a messy break up of Pale Saints that it wasn't until the end of 1996 that all the legal wranglings were sorted out. So it took up a year. It was like after a long relationship ends, I just wanted some space to take some time out. At the time, I didn't really have an interest in continuing with music, even under my own guise. For about two in a half years after that I didn't write anything.
Would you equate it to much like a messy divorce?
Yeah, definitely. Everything is fine now but at the time it wasn't the nicest thing to go through. After a couple years I got into going to clubs in Leeds and getting back into music, listening to electronic music, more than I had in the past. That sort of triggered my enthusiasm of how much I cared about music. I decided I wanted to try something new. I was a completely technophobic person so I decided to try something I had no idea how to do, writing songs on a computer. I wanted to start from scratch to feel fresh and excited about it again. I bought a really cheap computer and some software. I just took my time getting to know the equipment then I just went through the process of writing, writing and writing, finding out how to do it and then finding out what works and what doesn't.
So it was definitely a conscious decision to change musical directions?
Very much so. But I didn't even think as far as that it would get released. I needed to do this, I still had that passion. I did it for the enjoyment and just to do it. It wasn't me thinking I had to get another record out. I actually played some tracks for some friends and received positive responses. Then I thought, well, maybe I should think about actually getting this stuff released.
How did Kuchen come to be your new project's name?
There is a club in Leeds that encouraged people to come out and play their music. I became quite involved in it. I made a celebration cake on occasion after these events and actually became kind of well known for my baking. And Kuchen, which is cake in German…It picked me, I suppose.
Are there any other people involved in the music of Kuchen?
The only other person involved is a sound engineer I know with a home studio named Steve Whitfield. He knows a lot about recording so he helped with his technical expertise and, also, an extra set of ears. But the writing and playing is all me. He's there to help me get the production sorted out.
And that frees you up to just concentrate on creating the music...
Definitely.
Your trademark vocals are really not to be found on "Kids With Sticks", your first album under the Kuchen banner. Was that a conscious choice?
Yes, I wanted to get as far away from what I'd done in the past. I wanted to start from scratch. I am recording tracks right now that use my voice though.
So the next Kuchen album might feature your singing more prominently?
Yes.
How did "Kids With Sticks" get released?
It was natural. These musicians from Germany called To Rococo Rot were playing in Leeds and I really like their stuff. I even baked them a cake to show my appreciation. We talked and they discovered I made music too. They were interested so I sent them a mini-disc of my tracks so they could listen to it but I didn't think anything beyond that. Then I received a letter from one of the guys in To Rococo Rot telling me they really liked what I was doing. They sent the mini-disc to the German label Karaoke Kalk and then they got in touch with me. So it was very nice, accidental…
It sounds like a very organic way for it all to come together, much like how you allowed the creative process to be very unpressured and definitely not forced in any way...
It was very encouraging to get the positive response from people like To Rococo Rot because I really respect what they do, so it was a compliment that they liked my music. It was an injection of necessary self-confidence. I hadn't really played it to too many people so it was fantastic that kind of encouragement from them.
Do you plan to release future Kuchen albums via Karaoke Kalk?
Yeah, I'm finishing off some new stuff and they are interested in releasing it.
It seems like a good home for the music there. "Kids With Sticks" came out in the fall of 2001. When do you expect the next Kuchen album will appear?
Probably in the spring of 2003. It's actually a collaboration between me and Stefan Schneider of To Rococo Rot.
When did you first become into music and when did you know it was something you'd become so passionate about?
I remember when I was about ten, knowing that I really wanted to get a guitar. I knew I had to get one for Christmas. I got a bit obsessed about it. And I got one, thank God! I took lessons at school, which were classical. I thought they'd be teaching me power chords, but obviously not…
But it definitely helped you learn the guitar and, ultimately, writing songs...
Yes. That was very early on. I played in my bedroom, playing along to records I liked but never really doing it thinking I was going to try be in a band. Some school friends of mine, we put together bands and I really enjoyed it. When I went to college I met Miki Berenyi and Chris Acland (later to form one half of Lush). We all had mutual interest in music. It was sort of very natural and satisfied something I wanted to do, to make music. I think by the time I joined Pale Saints is when I realized that this was what I wanted to do. I'm home. This is what really matters and what I really care about.
What was it like to be in Pale Saints, touring the world and recording albums on 4AD?
I had travelled quite a bit when I was younger so it's not like I haven't been away from home before. I was in Pale Saints for about four weeks then we were in Europe on tour with the Pixies. I had never been on tour before…It was pretty much, in at the deep end in front of thousands of people. It was great.
After Ian Masters left Pale Saints, how did continuing on in the band become an option?
We wanted to carry on. We came back from our first US tour and received good reactions from people. We were offered a second tour but after five weeks away Ian wasn't up to it, he wasn't that into touring anyways. We thought we'd give it a go with me singing to see how it would go.
What is your personal favorite song from "Slow Buildings"?
"Henry".
Which was inspired by Henry Gorecki, the Polish composer?
Yes.
How do you feel about your version of Persian Rugs' "Poison In The Airwaves", which you transformed into "Fine Friend" from "Slow Buildings"?
Don't like it.
Really!? How did it come about, was it suggested to you by 4AD?
Yes, Ivo had requested it. He's a really decent and kind person. He gave us a lot of freedom and never really pressured us. He suggested covering the Persian Rugs song by taking the track, using the original melody and writing something new from it.
It must have been an unusual way to write…
Yeah. I did it out of a sense of obligation to Ivo but I didn't really like the result. I just used the original verse part and completely rewrote all the lyrics myself.
One of my favorites of yours is that short edit called "Reprise" on the "Fine Friend" EP. I love that "I'll never walk in to your arms", repeated over and over…
I actually felt more happy with that than the actual "Fine Friend" song.
What was it like working with Hugh Jones, the producer of several Pale Saints sessions along with many other band's classic recordings from Modern English to Echo And The Bunneymen?
He became like a fifth member of the band and was very much on the same wavelength as us. He's a very talented producer.
Back to the present, do you find there is more freedom in creating music on your own for a label like Karaoke Kalk?
Total control feels very liberating.
And essentially doing it on your own, away from a band setting, do you prefer writing and recording this way?
I'm really enjoying it on my own or collaborating with Stefan from To Rococo Rot. I don't ever see myself in a traditional band again though.
Would you tour Kuchen?
I've DJ-ed a few times, playing exclusive versions but haven't done a full version of Kuchen on tour.
What are you listening to these days?
Greg Davis has a really nice twist on folky guitar with acoustic textures and electronics. I really like what he's done. I like Brokeback. The "Amelie" soundtrack by Yann Tiersen is good. But lately mostly I've been writing a lot…
How did you come up with the album title "Kids With Sticks"?
I was walking home one day and saw this group of little kids with these big sticks, like they were using them as weapons, but not. They weren't old enough for that aggressive mind state.
I hope not, that you're not walking home through some sort of gangland full of kids with sticks!
No, no… It was just telling the story to some friends and I said kids with sicks - it just sort of summed up that image. I'd tell people the title and they'd say they really liked it. It just sounded appropiate.
How did you come up with the song titles? They're like stories unto themselves...
"Mauri The Pugilist" is about my cat, for one…
Have you considered working on a film soundtrack?
Yes, it would be great to do it and I'd be totally excited and flattered were it to happen.
I like the cover art to "Kids With Sticks". How did you come up with this design?
Just around the corner from my house there are these little drawings on the pavement, which have been there for years. I took some photographs of the drawings, that little kids had done and I wanted to capture it.
I like the Kuchen logo on the album sleeve. Did you design that?
That's actually a stitching I did one evening. I stitched it on to a card with a needle and thread, sent it to the label and it was incorporated into the sleeve.
Well, it really looks and sounds great, Meriel! We love "Kids With Sticks" and are definitely looking forward to the next Kuchen album in the spring. Thank you for taking time to talk with me!
Thank you!
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Interview by Jeff Keibel on September 17, 2002.